Business is Fcking Hard
The Business is Fcking Hard podcast invites business owners to share their stories with host, Trevor Koot. Stories of how they started, and the challenges and successes along the way. Stories of lessons that can be shared with others. And, most importantly, stories filled with uninhibited, unedited and unfiltered truth.
Business is Fcking Hard
Alex Miller
Growing up amidst the wide-open fields of southern Saskatchewan, Alex Miller learned the tenets of hard work early on but soon realized that his future lay far from the farm. Alex's journey took an unexpected turn when he ventured into engineering, only to discover a lack of passion for it—a revelation that ultimately led him to the vibrant world of real estate. The essence of entrepreneurship comes alive through Alex’s story: a blend of strategic planning and rapid action, all fueled by perseverance and a robust work ethic. He reflects on how each setback served as a learning opportunity, enriching his path with experiences that would shape his approach to business and community building.
Alex’s passion for modular construction and affordable housing unfolds as a fascinating tale of purpose-driven innovation. From the early struggles of economic downturns to redefining his business through strategic partnerships, Alex shares how he and his team navigated through challenges to make a meaningful impact on their community. The episode captures the poignant moments of collaboration with the Métis community for an elders lodge and the invaluable lessons in leadership that followed.
Hi there, I'm Trevor Coote, and this is Business is Fucking Hard, the podcast where business owners pull back the curtain and talk about the realities of owning a business. We'll hear their stories, learn some lessons and have some fun along the way. Thanks for joining us. On today's episode, we are joined by Alex Miller. Alex is co-founder and CEO of Big Block Construction, located in Saskatoon, saskatchewan. Alex has navigated his business journey focused on real estate and real estate development. His companies have challenged the traditional thinking and construction practices, which has not come without its own challenges for Alex and his businesses.
Speaker 1:I hope you enjoy this episode, alex Miller. Welcome to the podcast. Trevor Coote, thank you very much for having me. It is my pleasure I say this every time I'm excited to have this conversation. I genuinely am. I think people will hear that we've got quite a history almost 20 years and we went on different paths, but our lives keep intersecting and I look forward to having the conversation about when we first met, because I think that's I reflect on it once in a while, and that was a long time ago. So thanks for taking the time, alex, looking forward to hearing your story, as I do with everyone. Let's get started with what was your introduction to business and entrepreneurship? How did you get started?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. So I think so. Look, I grew up on a farm, southern Saskatchewan, all right, and you know so, probably a typical farm kid. I learned how to work hard. You know so, probably a typical farm kid. I learned how to work hard. And it was interesting because, you know, my parents my mom, have had multiple jobs, and still does, actually, and they're well into their seventies.
Speaker 2:My dad farms and he's big into the cattle, which it's funny. He asked farmers. Like you know, grain farming is enough of a challenge. Then you add cattle. It never ends right, like at least sometimes with grain farming. You can take breaks, um, uh, throughout winter, but anyways. So, uh, definitely learned how to work hard, but I was allergic to a lot of stuff on the farm. So I, you know, lived with my grandma in town, in small town of Avonlea, uh, for a couple of different months throughout the year when it was bad harvest or, you know, a spring mold, things like that. So, um, so I knew that I wasn't going to be able to take on the family farm or anything like that, um, so it was interesting.
Speaker 2:I, I was good at math and science and you know, you come from a small town and you know I'm oversimplifying this, but it's like, ah, you got four options in life, right, you stay farming a teacher, an engineer or something else. So I was like, well, okay, I'll go become an engineer. So, cause, I'm good at math and science, right, so I go into engineering. And I'm there for a couple of months and I was like, what is this? This is not me. So I remember phoning my, my dad, being like what's happening here? Like this, this can't be for me. And he said, look, you're allergic to everything on the farm. And then my dad lost his dad when he was 30 or 40. I can't remember, maybe early 30s, and so he didn't. He just said, look, there's, there's not really anything here for you. Go get an education and finish engineering, and then you'll figure out what you want to do. So unbelievable advice.
Speaker 2:Looking back 20, some years later and put my head down, and I learned how to learn. I learned how to get through something that maybe I wasn't really passionate about. I learned how to solve problems. And so it was in my last semester of engineering where I'm like, all right, I guess I got to figure out what the hell I'm going to do in life, because I know it's not engineering, and so I read a whole bunch of books. I've never read books that I didn't have to before in my life, it's kind of sad to say and I found that most people that had like freedom financial freedom had either businesses or real estate in their portfolio, and so I was actually in my last semester of engineering that I said I'm going to make a business out of real estate, that was how I got into it.
Speaker 1:And so inspired. Inspired by books. I love the. I love the aspect of tenacity around the education, just to just to work through it, even though you know you, you, you knew that that might not be the exact direction. What so inspired? For the real estate side, what was that first introduction to? What could you see being your first move as it related to real estate?
Speaker 2:after kind of reading, Well, and to help maybe clarify. I don't know if I was like. I don't know if it came from books, it was more when, the way I grew up, I saw my parents work so hard and didn't really have much from a financial perspective. We always had food on the table. You know, we were always. We were always happy and full of joy, but we didn't have luxuries. We didn't have all those other items and and I just felt like they were a great lifestyle right. Well, to some degree, I mean, you're always working you kind of, and so I think it was more driven out of a value of. It didn't seem fair to me that they worked so hard and yet couldn't take time off or didn't have some of the luxuries. I think maybe is what drove it, so that then then books was an opportunity to try to unpack it more.
Speaker 2:But, um, I was fortunate enough like I finished my engineering and mechanical engineering and I got a great job out in calgary, and but I had already planted the seed in my head of, okay, I'm gonna get into real estate, I'm gonna get into business. I don't know what that looks like. Um, I'm also gonna go down my career path currently Right, and so, as I was, you know, um, working through, uh, the great opportunity that I had in Calgary. I worked in the oil and gas industry for a year and a half uh, great learning opportunity. But it was at the time where, like I said, the seed had already been planted where I'm like, all right, I got to get into this game.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, it was like most starts to business, probably a whole bunch of bouncing all over the place and trying to figure out what does a business in real estate look like. And so I think a lot of times it starts with some simple flips, trying to find an undervalued asset and adding value, and then, you know, seeing the monetary gain from the value that you were adding. But of course, there's so much more to it than that. But I think that's kind of how it started, with some initial flips trying to understand what a business in real estate was all about.
Speaker 1:And we'll get to the story in like two seconds around where years of my paths first crossed. Um, but I was there, was there stuff before that, like you had a? Where were the flips in in calgary and what did that? How? I my my biggest question always when we start talking about, you know, the first moves in business was how scared were you? How, what, what? What was the fear factor for you around stepping out on that ledge and and making that first investment and pulling the trigger and saying I guess this is the path I'm going to go down?
Speaker 2:Yeah, funny, funny. You should mention that because actually I haven't thought about this honestly for a long time. That's the fun part about this podcast. You're bringing up stuff. I'm like, oh damn, I remember, uh. So another guy that I had graduated engineering with, tyler. We were good friends, we worked actually together at the same company, so of course I'm talking about how I want to do this and very smart guy and actually hilarious. We still work together this day. It was a business partner still is in many aspects. It was a great, great guy and we talked through a bunch of this.
Speaker 2:But then also one of my best buddies growing up and he was one of the best men at my wedding and he lived in Saskatoon at the time, and so actually it was the three of us that started talking about this and we all had this desire to do something more and I actually remember we were, we were sitting in a hot tub together, the three of us kind of talking about it, and we kind of finalized it and and one of the one of the ways I sold it to myself was I'm like, oh well, uh and I, uh and I and if I remember correctly it was, um, we'd started doing some stuff in 2005,. But we wanted to like, do it full time in 2006 and the way to maybe do it full time to commit it's kind of quit your job. And I remember thinking to myself I'm like, oh well, I'm not married yet and I don't have the kids yet. I'm like, oh, what a great opportunity. And I remember thinking to myself, well, I can tell my future wife. I'm like, hey, you know, you married, you married someone didn't have a job. So I was looking at that going uh.
Speaker 2:Anyways, back then I feel like it was easier. I had a lot more risk because I was willing to. You didn't have the same commitments. I mean I to me. I think what's honorable and much harder to probably accomplish is starting a business later in life, once you've got some of those commitments or you've maybe been, you know, beaten down with fear more. So I don't know. I guess I'm grateful enough that I did it when I was more ignorant. Definitely have some more pains throughout life than I think through the business because you are more ignorant, but at least starting might've been easier.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that you know that tracks with what I hear from people Like like it's, it's the the. The risk tolerance obviously is related to how much you have to lose, right.
Speaker 1:And and I that's. There's a lot less in your scenario when you're younger and and you know, you know before family, all of that kind of stuff, um, but also it comes I think some of it tracks back to what you were saying about your parents and kind of that work ethic and working so hard is when you do that earlier on you get the benefit of the lessons that you learned by. Uh, you know that, that tenacity, that that hard work, work ethic early, and then it it becomes and I'll use air quotes it becomes easier later on in business because you've learned all the lessons through the hard work. It seems like you're working hard and you're spinning your wheels, but then later on you get the benefit of all of that right.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I mean you try not to make the same mistake when they say fail just stands for first attempt in learning. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, looking back, you go home. That that was. That was a fascinating uh situation, but in the time it's a very painful process. So anyways, yeah, it's the kind of the joys of entrepreneurship and and being in that seat lots of, lots of benefits, but also, uh uh, lots of opportunities for pain as well yeah, yeah, and we'll get into that.
Speaker 1:I had a previous guest and I thought this was brilliant. Every, um, let's call it lesson every, every mistake that turned into, you know, a learning opportunity. They put it in their books as tuition, oh yeah, and I thought that was brilliant because then it really hits home Like that was.
Speaker 2:We're not identifying it as a mistake, it was a learning opportunity, yeah and I've also heard recently in a coaching program you're either on the winning team or you're on the learning team, Right?
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, all of these so great.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, I've been on both teams many times yeah, yeah, yeah, and we'll get it we'll get into that.
Speaker 1:We'll get into that because I, because I know, I know your, your, your path has been winding and I love it. Um, so you're, you're sitting in the hot tub. You decide with your couple of buddies this is what, this is what we're going to do. What did that first, that first step out, look like? Like, was it identify the property and just jump in? Or was it a year of kind of business case building things and then, and then stepping out on the ledge?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think for us it was we had actually started in in 2005. And then we kind of made the formal decision to go full time like a year later. And then we kind of made the formal decision to go full-time like a year later, uh. So yeah, we just we just jumped in, uh and we had lots of different, um I guess, opportunities kind of present themselves. I remember, um, you know, I I moved in, I was living in calgary, I uh I bought my first house within three months, uh, of living in calgary and then I actually bought my first, you know, like flip within six months. So it started pretty quick. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But then it was more just the three of us all kind of aligned on how can we help each other, more in the in the full time and less just kind of sporadic. And I mean, yeah, but we did both. We did both jumped right in to opportunities that we saw, but we also spent time on, you know, creating a business plan. I look back now. I remember we were struggling on some of that business plan and I just laughed at how ignorant we were. And, yes, so in one sense it's great you're hiring someone to help you, but at the same time, if you're so ignorant that you don't even know and actually they're potentially not everyone's created equal with their experience, and so it was almost like the blind leading the blind. I look back and I'm like, yeah, there wasn't a lot of value that came out of that except for, again, the ability to learn and that it is important and at some point you're going to have to know that stuff.
Speaker 1:Today you don't, but you will need it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's one thing to bring in people to do something. It's another and I'm sure what will come up later on is kind of this idea of mentorship and when to strategically bring in people, to kind of give some of that guidance based on experience, not just based on their ability to do a project or to help you with a business plan, but to guide Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and I mean, and one of the biggest things I that I've used now for years is if you don't know where you're going, all roads will take you there. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And sometimes at the start, if you're just trying and you're not thinking, you don't quite have the understanding of what business even is. Like we jumped into it because we thought we could do it, had no idea what business is like. Understanding what is value, like what, what is the? What is the point of a business? People like, oh, it's to make money. It's like, well, actually no, I think my opinion, I think the point of a business. People are like, oh, it's to make money. It's like, well, actually no, I think my opinion.
Speaker 2:I think the point of a business is to solve a problem. And if you can solve a problem, if there's enough value in that and there's enough of a market and a thousand other different factors, if you can actually make enough revenue to cover your costs of delivering that and you get get a profit, that then is kind of the definition of business. It's offering a value to a problem economically. Yeah, and I mean I bet you it took 10 years to truly kind of understand that concept of what is business, especially in the real estate, a lot of the things that we do they're very project based. So you're starting and stopping every time, starting and stopping. Everything has a start and an end. You know you don't typically have customers that repeat a different type of a business model. It's more of it's a project-based business model.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, yeah, and so all of that is fascinating. Your your comment about all roads if you don't know where you're going. All roads, uh, lead to what? Oh geez I. You don't know where you're going. All roads lead to what? Oh geez I. Just put you where you're going.
Speaker 2:All roads will lead you there, and I think, I think it might've been someone who said it and I find myself a lot of times going right. So now, a lot of times when, when we're getting into something, I'll just stop and be like what is our desired outcome? Yeah.
Speaker 2:What does success look like? And if we can't answer that, we're not going any further. Because the other thing that I use a lot when I give presentations or with the team I'm mentoring is and I love it was the Albert Einstein quote, where if I had 60 minutes to solve a problem, I'd spend 55 minutes defining what the problem is. And so if we get caught up in something and we're pulling in different directions, I just stop and go, okay, like, where are we going? What is success? Because if we don't know where we're going, then of course all roads are going to take you there.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the biggest things over the years, and the bigger you get, or the more people or the more you take on, the more fragmented it becomes. And there's a huge similarity between that and the specific in the in the business of like real estate, which I think is why we have a real estate shortage, because everything matters instead of coming back and saying what matters the most. But that's a whole, separate topic and maybe save that for a later date yeah, no, um, I it's.
Speaker 1:I, I completely% agree with all of that. I think we run into it so often with the changing landscape that's around us, right, and it's moving so fast with technology and regulation and policy and governments are trying to keep up. Every level of government is trying to keep up with the changing expectations of consumers but the impacts of economic challenges, pandemics, all of it, and so, at the end of the day, everybody's making decisions and nobody's asking what problem are we trying to solve? Right, like we're just trying to get to this end state that we don't know what it is, but like, what is it? What problem are we trying to solve with this particular decision?
Speaker 1:And I think, as we unpack your story, you're starting to like you didn't just look at real estate. You looked at real estate in a different lens. So we'll get there. I think we're at the point where years and my paths cross and I'm going to, I'm going to set the stage for that a little bit. No-transcript your flips. I don't remember if you had partners in that deal. I can't picture the transaction itself. But, um, what, what, where was that in kind of the continuum, and was that a launch point to kind of continuing on?
Speaker 2:yeah, I would say that was just another um. I wouldn't say that was overly strategic. We did have partners, um, like the partners I had talked about started, but we also had some finance partners and you know, again, it's all about adding value and I think there was a lot of times where we got off track and did projects that didn't add value and then you pay for that afterwards and then you pay for that afterwards. So, in your particular example, like when you, when you, if you buy an undervalued asset and much is that, it's a speculative nature. It's not what value are you offering. And so, um, we did a handful of different um transactions in the earlier years. Um, some some great, uh, some not so much, and it was, I think, kind of part of the learning. One of the um, I think one of the, the, the most unique and biggest opportunity that we had, that kind of launched.
Speaker 2:Where we went is actually kind of interesting. It was, I remember, we were looking for a mentor is actually how it went. We were doing a bunch of these different things and it was like ah, you know, we need someone to help us, we need, we need someone to help us, and so we started searching like who are some mentors in Saskatoon or who are some some real estate gurus? And anyways, we came across this, this gentleman in Saskatoon, and somehow we noticed he was one of the mentors under under the Rajmanic program I think it was actually Ken Ox and we saw that they were having a business mixer in a month and so we went out there and we met with them and it was really interesting. He at the time said you know what I love, what you guys are doing, and hey, you're Saskatchewan, born and raised awesome good guys. But he said you know, I just took on a mentor by the name of Carl Miller and really sad, sad story he, his wife and his two kids, actually was a head-on collision just over a year ago and the entire family was killed. So it was super sad, but at the time that's who he was talking about. And he said you know, I just took on this young mentor, so I don't have the time for you, but there's another individual and so, anyways, and we went and we met with that new individual and he said you know, I have this potential opportunity. A whole bunch of units, they're up by the airport. They had just been renovated under a government program, you're going to have to find a way to physically pick them up, move them across town, put them back together. But if you can pull it off, yeah, I'd be happy to be a partner and a mentor of yours, and easier said than done.
Speaker 2:But you know, six months later we put all the plans and everything together and, sure enough, we ended up pulling off that project and that was kind of how we got into doing larger multifamily. And when you think about, the buildings were built back in the 50s. They had been renovated under a government program. So it made sense that you know you could pick them up and you can move them across the city. But it was like that doesn't exist in every neighborhood. It's not like you can go find these buildings. And that's actually where we stumbled upon modular construction. We stumbled upon wait a minute, why are we building the same archaic way that we have for hundreds and hundreds of years? Isn't there a more efficient way of building? So that was actually how the initial seed got planted for all the advanced construction that we now do in all of our projects.
Speaker 1:So we're going to go there next. I just want to reflect on a couple of things that you said in that piece of the story, the first piece being that I was not a linchpin in the launch of your career or your next success. So let's just be clear about that I had nothing to do with. That's not true.
Speaker 2:You know what someone said once it's like a pinball machine. You got to go in for it, you got to hit the sides, you got to hit all that. You were a part of the journey.
Speaker 1:Trevor creation intended or otherwise. You didn't articulate it, but this your definition around business identify a problem, create value to solve the problem, and if there's a market for it, then you have a business right. It starts with it starts with problem, and then value. And value is kind of your north star right, like where are we continuing to add value? And then, looking at it from that speculative townhouse purchase, you didn't see all of those things come into play, and so that really then just becomes an investment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know what? I can't remember exactly. I mean, one of them might've added value because it was at the right price for a certain period of time, but it was more. They were just investments, they weren't really value add. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Anyway, I like all of that, like you can start to differentiate, because the other thing that comes up in the podcast a lot, whether it's said outright or using different words, is this idea of purpose before profit. Right, you're, you're trying to do something first as a business and then and, and, and the profit obviously becomes a major aspect and factor in the decision-making and all of that kind of thing. Um, but really the business is there for purpose first and foremost, and um, yeah, and I I can.
Speaker 2:It's fascinating. I can tell you that we didn't really have clear purpose and I wouldn't say it's because, um, I would actually say that we probably didn't understand or recognize the need for how valuable it was and and maybe we might have intuitively acted in a certain way around a purpose. But we clarified it, uh, about four years ago. And building communities at full throttle is the purpose that we live and it's uh, I'm usually I'm pretty loose with words, those words. There's so much in that, uh, but exactly to your point, uh, purpose is so, so powerful yeah, and I hear that a lot too is is that it?
Speaker 1:it? It almost becomes malleable with the, with the business, like it's not a fixed purpose from the starting point to the end point. It's like it. It can change and it can be like the. The guiding light that you're using as a purpose can evolve over time with the business and and I think I think you've I mean already identifying that you didn't, you don't know that. You had one to begin with, and now it's extremely articulated. So let's get into that, let's get into that transition. You laid the story out really well. It was not an intentional move, but it kind of evolved with this first project to get on a mentor or engage a mentor. You moved a bunch of buildings and now what was the catalyst to start looking at more of that modular construction? Uh, and what brought you to big block?
Speaker 2:yeah, exactly so. Um, so at this point now, um, the opportunity had arose that and you know what I I loved so originally from a small town town went from a farm around a small town, went to Saskatoon of 250,000, 300,000, whatever it was at the time Said I want to move to something bigger, got that job in Calgary and once this opportunity came in Saskatoon, we removed some buildings. I was like you know, and by this time I had been married, I got married and first born. I was like you know, my, by this time I had been married, I got married and my firstborn I was like you know. My wife's family is originally from Saskatoon and I'm really focused on the business. It's probably a good opportunity to come home. She will have a good support group and I could be, you know, kind of a bigger fish in a smaller sea.
Speaker 2:So I kind of thought through as to I thought this was a strategic move to do. So I moved back to Saskatoon. There was two of us in Saskatoon and one in Calgary at the time, but, yeah, the focus was on this project. I think we did an exceptional job on it. My focus was on the construction side of it and that's where, kind of, like I said, the seeds have been planted around now like the modular side of it, and my and my business partner at the time actually he was more focused on the finance side, so he was on the more on the financing, the sales and the equity, and it was interesting because we really started to see a need for helping the affordable housing sector.
Speaker 2:There's huge gap on the affordable housing sector at that time still is, still is, it still is. Yeah, and now I can articulate it a little bit better, saying you know, if you look at the entire housing spectrum, affordable housing is one piece of it and when you classify it, you can actually say about roughly 5% of all the housing is affordable housing. But make no mistake, what actually matters amongst everything is housing affordability. Housing affordability affects all, including affordable housing. But anyways, there was a mandate in Saskatoon to say, hey, we need to build a lot more affordable housing. And so actually, you know, my business partner really focused on that and it was neat. Again, this is how purpose kind of defined I was very much all about we need to advance construction methods, we need to, like it's archaic, like let's be more productive, let's bring things indoors, let's be efficient and let's you know, let's help our economy succeed, and but we started doing a lot of the affordable housing projects and then, once I started to see the impact that it had on people's lives and our community, on how much that's really where that purpose thing continued to grow.
Speaker 2:I would say the purpose, you know, prior to that would have been maybe advancing construction methods.
Speaker 2:But once we really started to get into the affordable housing space and then, as it evolved to big block construction and doing modular and helping a lot of different customers, some that I'm super excited and proud to share about their journeys, a lot of these amazing community organizations that need a partner in the housing space, that is where a huge gap got filled and the purpose was kind of completed as to building communities at full throttle. We build for developers and investors. We also build for a lot of operators, nonprofit indigenous groups and the stories that they have. There's just so much more. I would say impactful, or more I don't want to say meaningful maybe, because obviously, investors and developers, you're still hitting a niche that's extremely important, but it's such a powerful story and that really touches the heart. So I think it wasn't until we had a few of those projects that we had developed and seen firsthand the impact and the the meaning that it I guess that it gave that really helped define our purpose.
Speaker 1:And so those early days, Alex, of kind of moving into that modular, you identify the affordable housing piece. Were you a construction company at that point? Were you actually building units or were you putting the pieces together to have affordable housing built in saskatoon?
Speaker 2:yeah, more the more the putting the pieces together like, um, so we, we moved a bunch of the, the buildings that had been renovated, but when you think about it, we still had to take certain pieces apart and bring in the right contractors and have our own crew move them across the city, put foundations in site servicing and at a time when the market was booming, so we actually had to create our own servicing company. You know, in the first three or four years we had over 100 employees. Like just crazy when I look back to like what were you thinking? Like, if you're an expert at everything, you probably know nothing but amazing opportunity. So, yeah, we were kind of, we were for sure a construction company but we weren't building the units. And then when we got into that modular side of it, I toured a bunch of facilities that build modular homes and it was interesting because back then and actually a lot of that still exists today the modular plants that are out there. They've been around for 50 years and they are amazing at building boxes but they're actually more for remote regions or rural regions.
Speaker 2:Single family, more farm farm homes, multi-family and modular didn't exist and actually I would I would still bet that the vast, vast majority of multi-family and modular like modular multifamily projects still don't exist. We have the most experience in canada. We've and we've learned a lot of pain throughout the early days, but what we really did at that start is we saw an opportunity going. Wait a minute, this is an advanced way of building. Multifamily needs built, affordable multifamily needs built. How do we connect the dots? And it took us years to work with the modular manufacturer, and now we've expanded to multiple manufacturers and teaching them how to get into the multi-family side of it, because building single family, you know, and more single family or remote homes, versus now a multi-family, is a very, very different beast. And so that's that's probably where we spent, I'd say, three or four years really perfecting how to get into the multi-family space and what, what, what timeline are we talking about here?
Speaker 1:Like the early 2010s?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say 2009 to 2012 or 2013 is when we're really starting to hone in the multifamily modular side of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to go back to your comment about the scaling, because I think this is again, if we're trying to pull out business lessons for the listener and use these stories as opportunities to not only learn but to identify with other people's journeys as well that rapid growth what did that look like? Where did things go right, where did things go wrong and what was the correction, if there was one kind of at the end of that?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, there was Well. So if you think about this, all right, so challenging some dates here, I think I started the business with the guys in 2000 or sorry, when I was 23, and fast forward. So, like I'm, you know, I maybe have two young children. I'm 27 or 28. And next thing, you know, we're up to over a hundred employees and I have one other business partner. We're both equal partners. There's nobody overseeing us. You got a couple of 27, 28 year old kids running 100 people. That's a recipe for disaster.
Speaker 2:Now, thankfully, it wasn't actually as much of a disaster as it probably could have been, but it was neat because as we were building, we were able to bring to the market a niche housing opportunity for a lot of people. That that it, and we could deliver it fast. So the sales got to a point where the sales just kept going. So it was my job just to kind of keep up. It was on the operation side, right, and so it got to a point where it became really, really efficient and then fast forward. How many years. All of a sudden, the sales maybe weren't there. But you know, we're both partners. There's no one over top looking at this. We're still in our mid, late twenties. No one's saying hey guys, typical industry has ebbs and flows. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Operations should never go ahead of sales Like what do you, what do you? But you know, naive, young, dumb and just keep going. And and never could I fathom that things would slow down. Why? I mean, we just kept building, building, building. I think I remember being called a dozer at the time. Right, there was that a dozer, remember those like a fraggle rock or something. You just keep building. I was like I don't know if that's a an endearing comment, but anyways, building, building, building, right, building right, it's a throwback.
Speaker 2:And anyways, and so didn't really have my head wrapped around the market side of it. And when things started to slow down, we actually built some rentals which kind of helped fill that gap. But ultimately, you know, oil crashed in 2014. It then took a few years, but it really did start to hit residential market in about 2016, 17, 18. And for those who made decisions quickly in 2016-ish, it was okay. We hung on and we didn't mean to, we weren't trying. It's not like we were just young and more ignorant saying, well, I don't know if this is really affecting us, is it? And so there was some pain throughout 2016 and 17.
Speaker 2:But really, in 2018 is where the pain hit, because now, you know, some of the finance partners basically were like look, you're overbuilt in Saskatoon, not going to approve another project. And so, no, it was like, oh, at that point we had gone from, you know, being profitable a few years prior to kind of barely breaking even to now you can't even build a project. Well, if you can't build a project and you're a project-based business, where's the long-term success of the business? That was, for sure, one of the most painful things we had to go through. It was a restructuring and again it was like how are we going to add value and what are we going to do, and kind of restarting if you will. It was like how are we going to add value and what are we going to do? And kind of restarting if you will. But again, what a great opportunity to kind of um, you know, to restart under um, a new set of lens and a new value. And you're not restarting without knowledge, you're restarting with an amazing amount of knowledge.
Speaker 1:Uh, so, yeah, anyways, I'll stop there, but and and uh, was it? Uh? I should know the answer to this, but at what point did you become big block construction? Was it during that transition or was it before that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Prior to that, we were kind of like a developer and a construction company all in one, and then what we did is the business partner and I we both decided, okay, we still owned a bunch of rentals together, a great relationship and happy with that.
Speaker 2:But we said, okay, we kind of have a couple different paths forward. It was at that point where um brought on a handful of the team and, uh, and we started to build big block construction where we weren't a developer, more of a design build general contractor, more of a development partner for a lot of the nonprofit groups really wanted to help others, because really, when you think about it, we did not have an unlimited supply of land or an unlimited supply of capital or an unlimited supply of a market. We knew how to build really, really well. We knew how to design build modular construction. We could scale that, and so the business model with big block construction is, as a design build partner, as a design build general contractor, we can help groups that have land that have need, that have access to funding, and so that's really where we took the opportunity to, I guess, reset our own expectations and know where we're going, and then, yeah, it's been an awesome, really really awesome, five years since.
Speaker 1:And how many staff do you have now? Just under 30. Yeah, so that transition from 100 plus to under 30, was it kind of in that 2018 timeline, was it kind of overnight, or was it a slow drop and then a slow increase, kind of yeah um.
Speaker 2:It came in different, in different waves so, and we kind of started with only a few, ramped up to over 100 um within a few short years I think that was about 2020-12, if I'm not mistaken and then we started to refine some processes and by about 2014 or 2015, I think, we had got down to about 40 really, really, really solid um, you know, efficient, trained, awesome people. And then that's why, to me, 2018 was, for sure, one of the most painful things I ever went through, and it was um, because at the looking back now it makes a lot of sense. I we readjusted, we found our new North star, we found a way to survive and thrive, but at the time that's not what it looks like.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:World's coming to an end. You're laying people off. You don't know how this is going to work.
Speaker 2:You're looking, am I going to be bankrupt? We made decisions way too late. You think it's the end of the world. You think people are going to go homeless. You think people are not going to get their feet underneath them. And horrible, painful experience that I don't wish on anyone Horrible, horrible, painful At the same time. I'm so grateful I went through it and there's not a day that goes by that I don't use that as part of my North Star to make sure that I'm protecting our team, ensuring that we add value, ensuring, you know, financial, uh due diligence in our organization going forward, because I don't want to repeat that like that was a, that was a trauma, that, um, that, to me, has kind of given us some guiding principles.
Speaker 1:I think anybody can probably do a top guess or a top three guesses of what your answer to this question is going to be. But what was the hardest part about that transition?
Speaker 2:It was 100% the people side of it. I mean, I looked at it. We had been head down building a business offering value to people, growing team members, amazing relationship bonding for years, and it all becomes in jeopardy With something that you maybe never saw coming, was not in your control interest rates or market or oil. Things changed and it impacted you extremely severely and not knowing where you're going anymore, I mean you start questioning everything. One you know that you can't afford to pay many people, so you have to lay off, and this is not just like a little layoffs, this is like 90% plus layoffs. So you ask yourself did I even build anything worth? Did I even add value? Like you start questioning everything. What was the purpose? Like I've spent the last 10 years building business and almost having to restart. Maybe I shouldn't do this. Am I not good at it?
Speaker 2:A lot of personal reflection goes into this too, and sometimes I think I can see a lot of people not breaking out of that because it's such a negative thing to go through, a painful thing to go through, and you worry or at least I did, I worried about all the people going. They're going to have jobs, they're going to make their mortgage payments? How are they going to about all the people going? How are they going to have jobs? Are they going to make their mortgage payments? How are they going to? And those were really really hard conversations. Looking back, two more senior people came right up to me, shook my hand and said thank you, brother, it's been a ride, it's the best opportunity I've ever had. And kind of stuck with me because I was like well, those are outliers, like that's weird. The rest of us were all sobbing and in pain and and I got these couple guys and I'm like what the? And they're just like oh, this is a construction history.
Speaker 2:We've been through this before and yeah, right, love what you and and it didn't. I didn't really let that sink in. It probably took me at least three years to truly forgive myself for what happened. Um, but yeah, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1:No, Alex, I appreciate you sharing the vulnerability, Because I think I hope that the people that listen can understand that this doesn't just happen to them, Because I would be shocked I think everybody would be shocked to know the number of people that this happens to. And I've talked about it before on the podcast. I've talked about it elsewhere that a big gap in understanding business ownership is that business owners have a connection to the people around them that isn't appreciated enough and you build trust and then, when things like this happen, you feel like you breached that trust right.
Speaker 2:You do. You do trust right, you do you do, um, thankfully there's, you know you have an amazing support team, or you hope to have an amazing support team around you, that that keeps you alive and keeps you supported. Um, and then, as time goes on, you you can start to understand why it happened. I think one of the biggest problems for me is not understanding the why. Uh, because, am I a failure? Were they a failure? Was the business model failure? Do we not have, like there's so many questions and but what I did, I did recover from it.
Speaker 2:It was. It was painful, for sure, but unbelievable lessons come from it. And I remember someone telling me afterwards you know, people aren't going to judge you by that action. They're going to judge you about how you treated them for the years that you worked with them, and I felt really damn good about actually how we treated them. And I look at where lots of them are today and where lots of them are. We still work now together, both in the same company in another company. It's amazing how many of the same people I work with but at the time, complete, complete uncertainty and yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:I get very emotional over both the staff and the commitment to it and also our customers and the value that we offer, because you also, I know how valuable it is to offer what we're doing to our customers. And then I also go. Not only am I impacting our staff and their families, but if we can't offer value to our customers, then they're impacted too. Those are the two things that really drive me, and so I've learned a lot of those lessons and I'd say I'm a little bit older and a little bit wiser. Again, I have no idea where that spectrum is and I think we continue just to get older and we continue to get wiser. But I definitely use a lot of those lessons learned to protect the organization, to protect our team and to protect our customers, ultimately so that we can ensure values added for many years to come.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, they're hard lessons and, as you pointed out, when I said, I think anybody could guess probably the top one or the top three items, and as soon as you said people, it was the people aspect. You know what? It's always the people aspect. That's always the best part and it's always the hardest part. It just is yeah, always the best part and it's always the hardest part. It just is yeah. Um, I want to shift a little bit and just talk. I would just explore uh kind of, as we close out here, um, maybe you're, you're the biggest project that you undertook and more of more of the business side of that, like kind of your, your financing strategies and uh, and and the partnerships that were required and how you built kind of the, the team, the collective team, not just your team, but the collective team uh around, uh building, building some of the biggest projects that you've undertaken yeah, well, you know, I'll, I give a, maybe I'll give a specific example.
Speaker 2:That kind of ties into, I think, our purpose of building communities at full throttle and how it helped kind of kickstart Big Block to where it is, and it definitely ties in what you were saying. We had a really cool opportunity to work with Comfy and we still work with them, but it's the central urban metis federation incorporated comfy, um and their leader, uh, shirley, is bister um, unbelievable. Love her and let's see if I can screw this quote up, but she says a quote that I love and admire. She's, like you know, the, the, the, the speed of the leader determines the rate of the pack. I said the rate, the, the speed of the leader determines the rate of the pack. I did screw it up, but I'm sure I think you get the comment there. You get the intent of it um, speed of leader determines the rate of pack. No, that's it.
Speaker 2:And we had an opportunity to work um their gm at the time, kelly pruden. He reached out and it was in 2019 and he said look, they're looking at building an elders lodge, metis specific elders lodge, and we had done lots of modular, a lot of affordable housing, and so it fit, uh. But there was a lot of things we didn't know, and so he invited us to this integrated design charrette where we got to learn from the elders. You know, and this was before covid it's fascinating because, you know, like, a few months later you look at covid, like, oh, I would never be in a room with, with right, 40 elders, right, but I remembered vividly, we broke into these in these groups, and the elders were talking about, you know, uh, how their generation works and and why they need to, you know, more of a meaty, specific and traditional and so that we can raise our kids and and have these, these opportunities for growth.
Speaker 2:And I remember they didn't say we've been talking about this for over 20 years and I just hope it gets built before I die. And I thought to myself, mike, we've been in business for 10 years, we've built over 20 projects. How could you not have this? If this is so valuable to you, your community, why don't you have this? Why don't you?
Speaker 2:It's not a lack of will or determination. So I remember coming out of that meeting talking to our staff being like we have a duty here, we, we need to add our value. And I remember it was a bit daunting because, okay, like we're going to build a Métis project, uh, an elders lodge, and like there's there's more things that I don't know about that than I do know, but we were smart enough and aware enough to say, ok, we don't know anything about certain pieces of this, then let's find the right experts to help guide us through, no different than they were relying on our expertise to guide them through a project, because to me it was easy to be able to work through a project. But my challenges were some of the funding pieces which we then found partners to go through, five funders, seven programs, extremely, extremely complicated, which I could talk a long time on.
Speaker 2:A separate thing about why a lot of affordable housing doesn't get built, because if it doesn't pencil and you have to bring in some supports, it only compounds the complexity of it. It is so complex but, um, but so that side of it, and then obviously the elder side of it and, and understanding a lot of the um, you know the specific cultural elements I didn't know anything about. So you bring in architects who probably will have forgotten more than I'll ever learn and that's not to be a negative, but just if they're so ingrained in it and so you capitalize on, on their abilities, you tie it in and it was an unbelievable project and I'll and I'll never forget the day we turned dirt. I got emotional and it was because I could see the joy in Shirley's eyes as she spoke, and that's when it really helped solidify for us. It was about building communities at full throttle. A lot of people talk about them, a lot of people design or consult, but at the end of the day, we need to build.
Speaker 2:We actually have to take action, and communities can encompass a lot of people design or consult but at the end of the day, we need to build. We actually have to take action, and communities can encompass a lot of things but, in that particular sense, helping our customers on something that they're amazing at community building. They're they're amazing community advocates. Um, they have hundreds of rental units and they know how to take care of people and to build them up. They needed a development partner and what's awesome about that particular partnership and I call it a partnership?
Speaker 2:At the end of the day, they're their projects. We're just a fee for service, but I do call it a partnership because that's what I truly believe in and it's that whole people side of it that you know, our culture is about partnerships. We've built two projects with them and we actually just turned dirt on the third project. And it's those relationships, those partnerships, that can grow and expand over time and I think that's really helped define who we are and helped us understand the pieces of the journey for our customers on how we can, on where we can add value so we can make a difference.
Speaker 1:I am so glad I asked that question because that kind of put a bow on so many things that you were talking about, like the path of the organization, the North Star, kind of changing as you evolved, as the company evolved, as the need of the community evolved. Um, I have to get closure on one piece of that story. Why hadn't it been built for 20 years? Is it because of all the things that you outlined, all of those challenges that you saw yourself? Is, was that just daunting for anybody else to actually get get the dirt turn?
Speaker 2:yeah, you know, I think, um, um, I probably wouldn't oversimplify it to just one specific item um, you know, I could if I flip it and put it into your lens. Why aren't more homes being built right now? Sure and there's's a whole off of it. What I can say is I mean I could talk for a long time on that side of it alone, but if there's a reason we're not building homes and there's a lot of them affordable housing is probably 10 times more complicated. Right.
Speaker 2:Right. So I would just say it wasn't for a lack of will or trying. I don't know about some of their previous, but I can tell you it's just. It's a very complicated beast because it's probably 10 times harder than more market rate where it's one funder. So, again, what I love about that is I'm just so grateful that we could help them and now we're a strong advocate for that. But it is amazing for that. But it is amazing and I guess I won't get into it now but it's amazing how many um roadblocks are out there and how how you think you know different groups and even government want these things built.
Speaker 1:But it's amazing how the roadblocks, the gatekeepers that and I don't think they mean to be that, but it's so fragmented it makes it impossible almost to get projects built yeah, um, on the complexity side, I often say that anybody who starts a conversation about, uh, fixing the, the housing challenges in Canada, anybody that starts a conversation with all they need to do, is I'm like, I'm out, like that that's not a conversation I'm gonna participate in because because that there is no all they need to do.
Speaker 1:And that applies to so many things like like health care and the economy and, like so many things in the world today, there's no fix yeah, there's no one fix what I.
Speaker 2:What I do find interesting, though, is how many times we are not asking the right people and listening to the right people. And I look at this and we've spent 15 years over 16 years now doing this. We have an unbelievable amount of experience across different projects that we would love to help showcase, and it's fascinating how we don't actually take those good examples. It's fascinating how we, as society, don't look at that and go, hey, why don't we just take what's been done successfully and repeat it? It's almost like we have to reinvent it every time. I think the answers actually are there If we had strong enough leadership to find it and to promote it and to unpack it and to empower it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, let's you and I, before we started the podcast, we said we're long overdue 20 years overdue for a sit down lunch and to really just unpack some of this stuff. A sit down lunch and to really just unpack some of this stuff. Let's plan to do that in 2025. And let's see if we can collectively make our mark on on changing some of these things going forward Because, as you pointed out, it's complex. It's not going to become any easier Unless people start to look at what that North Star is, what is the problem we're trying to solve and how do we bring the right people together to solve it. And I think you have a great contribution to that. So, alex, truly man, I appreciate this conversation. I appreciate all of the stories and certainly the many lessons that you were able to share. I think any listener, whether they're experienced in business if they're experienced in business, they'll relate to a lot of the things, and if they're not, it'll help set them on the right path. So really, really appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Trevor. I think it was just an absolute blast and an honor. I appreciate all that you're doing. Thanks for having me the time. Thank you, Trevor, I think it was just an. It was an absolute blast and an honor. I appreciate all that you're doing.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me yeah, thank you, man.